For almost eight months after launching Stack Overflow to the public, we had no concept of banning or blocking users. Like any new frontier town in the wilderness of the internet, I suppose it was inevitable that we'd be obliged to build a jail at some point. But first we had to come up with some form of government.
Stack Overflow was always intended to be a democracy. With the Stack Exchange Q&A; network, we've come a long way towards that goal:
We strive mightily to build self organizing, self governing communities of people who are passionate about a topic, whether it be motor vehicles or homebrewing or musical instruments, or … whatever. Our general philosophy is power to the people.
But in the absence of some system of law, the tiny minority of users out to do harm – intentionally or not – eventually drive out all the civil community members, leaving behind a lawless, chaotic badland.
Our method of dealing with disruptive or destructive community members is simple: their accounts are placed in timed suspension. Initial suspension periods range from 1 to 7 days, and increase exponentially with each subsequent suspension. We prefer the term "timed suspension" to "ban" to emphasize that we do want users to come back to their accounts, if they can learn to refrain from engaging in those disruptive or problematic behaviors. It's not so much a punishment as a time for the user to cool down and reflect on the nature of their participation in our community. (Well, at least in theory.)
Timed suspension works, but much like democracy itself, it is a highly imperfect, noisy system. The transparency provides ample evidence that moderators aren't secretly whisking people away in the middle of the night. But it can also be a bit too … entertaining for some members of the community, leading to hours and hours of meta-discussion about who is suspended, why they are suspended, whether it was fair, what the evidence is, how we are censoring people, and on and on and on. While a certain amount of introspection is important and necessary, it can also become a substitute for getting stuff done. This might naturally lead one to wonder – what if we could suspend problematic users without anyone knowing they had been suspended?
There are three primary forms of secretly suspending users that I know of:
I've always associated hellbanning with the Something Awful Forums. Per this amazing MetaFilter discussion, it turns out the roots of hellbanning go much deeper – all the way back to an early Telnet BBS system called Citadel, where the "problem user bit" was introduced around 1986. Like so many other things in social software, it keeps getting reinvented over and over again by clueless software developers who believe they're the first programmer smart enough to figure out how people work. It's supported in most popular forum and blog software, as documented in the Drupal Cave module.
(There is one additional form of hellbanning that I feel compelled to mention because it is particularly cruel – when hellbanned users can see only themselves and other hellbanned users. Brrr. I'm pretty sure Dante wrote a chapter about that, somewhere.)
Because we try to hew so closely to the real world model of democracy with Stack Exchange, I'm not quite sure how I feel about these sorts of reality-altering tricks that are impossible in the world of atoms. On some level, they feel disingenuous to me. And it's a bit like wishing users into the cornfield with superhuman powers far beyond the ken of normal people. But I've also spent many painful hours trapped in public dialog about users who were, at best, just wasting everyone's time. Democracy is a wonderful thing, but efficient, it ain't.
That said, every community is different. I've personally talked to people in charge of large online communities – ones you probably participate in every day – and part of the reason those communities haven't broken down into utter chaos by now is because they secretly hellban and slowban their most problematic users. These solutions do neatly solve the problem of getting troublesome users to "voluntarily" decide to leave a community with a minimum of drama. It's hard to argue with techniques that are proven to work.
I think everyone has a right to know what sort of jail their community uses, even these secret, invisible ones. But keep in mind that whether it's timed suspensions, traditional bans, or exotic hellbans and beyond, the goal is the same: civil, sane, and safe online communities for everyone.
Identities are free. Just create a new user, carry on the same.
Nick on June 4, 2011 6:36 AM@Nick
As I see it, the point in these kinds of bans are that nobody (including the banned person) knows that they are banned.
Besides, these can be done per-ip too and those aren't switched that easily.
@Nick Yes and no. A new identity will have a low reputation and limited capability for mischief.
Jakobborg on June 4, 2011 6:51 AMBe very careful with the technique you call "slowbanning". It's all too easy to open yourself up to DoS issues. If your web server holds open a process for the duration of the artificial delay then make sure that your rate-limiting happens before the delay.
I work for a large-ish (~2 million unique visitors/month) discussion forum and we currently do not use any of the techniques listed above. We used to use "hellbanning" but the implementation of the feature in the software was poor and the tiny benefit was outweighed by the additional complexity.
If the problem you're trying to solve is "how do I cut down on the meta-discussion around each ban" then one of the most useful fixes is to exclude bystanders from discussions about specific bans. If you allow general discussion of ban scenarios but prohibit specific discussion of individual bans by uninvolved 3rd parties you should be able to limit the amount of your time you have wasted. It mostly works for us.
Conor McDermottroe on June 4, 2011 6:53 AM@Nick: You'd be surprised at how little of your identity is made up of login/OpenID/e-mail/IP/etc and how much of it is made up of behavior. Duplicate identities are very easy to spot in the vast majority of cases.
Conor McDermottroe on June 4, 2011 7:04 AMWhat I see here is that while these methods work, in theory, if someone finds out they'll just create another account. So, you have to keep them secret.
Another issue: All of these seem like permanent solutions to hide the bad community members. Since they, in theory, don't know what is going on, they won't learn a lesson. So, for instance, you can't make the slow ban temporary. If it's a week and they just come back and resume their behavior (you know, "when the site performance is back on track"), nothing learned. In fact, they'll probably start complaining about how poor the site performs.
For the hellban, it's even worse. Because they get to continue their bad behavior, they really don't learn anything. And you can never re-enable the account, in whole, because of that.
So, it seems that in all cases, these are effectively permanent bans. The main difference is that the idea is to bore the person to self exclusion, rather than instantly anger them to creating new accounts and causing more trouble.
(Per the reputation: It's most likely the most of the worst offenders have less than 100 reputation -- or maybe 200 since 100 is the base now once you start linking. If people with thousands of reputation start causing trouble, something else might be wrong.)
@Nick: People need to know that they are banned to get a new identity. The point of banning people secrectly is to ban them without letting them know.
@Jeff: On Stack Exchange there would be another possibility:
Prevent the questions in which the user post from rising to the top.
What about giving the control to the users, by allowing them to block other users they do not want to see content from? Or is that not absolute enough?
LukeMorton on June 4, 2011 8:05 AM@LukeMorton: That's a good idea, and in fact I think the best approach is to use a combination of all the involved suggestions in this post and thread.
Hellbanning/slowbanning/errorbanning shouldn't be tools of first resort -- they should be reserved for users who cannot learn to behave better, or who are deliberately trying to be destructive and have no intention of changing their behavior, because public-banning these users just makes them go create new accounts and try again.
Warnings followed by timed suspensions (known to the user) should be the first approach; some users will realize they've been misbehaving and improve their behavior. And all such actions taken by moderators should be public, despite the possibility of notoriety; in a democracy, as Jeff puts it, the actions of government need to be public and transparent.
But after the first couple of offenses, or if it's clear that a user is being intentionally disruptive, moving to hellbanning (maybe not permanently, but for a while) is entirely reasonable.
In fact, it would be interesting to implement a trial system, where when a user is deemed (by mods) to be disruptive, they're placed on trial, and "jury service" is randomly assigned to users. (Probably you'd try to exclude users who the accused had posted replies to. ;-)) The users individually vote on whether to suspend the user. It could maybe require a unanimous vote, as in a criminal trial, or maybe just a supermajority (two-thirds?). Whether the identities of the jury were known might not have to be public, since they'd be pulled randomly by computer and can issue their verdicts without having to be physically present in the courtroom -- instead, the "testimony" would be presented to them on a special page that showed all the accused' recent posts. There's all sorts of issues with a trial approach, I'm sure, but the SO sites could be an interesting place for it to be (no pun intended) tried.
A user being able to /ignore other users is something that should always exist. (With an option: Do I see the user's presence on a thread, but the content of their posts/replies is hidden, or is their presence entirely hidden?) Normally, being ignored by a few people shouldn't have any effect on whether you end up getting banned, but if you end up getting blocked by a lot of people with high reputation (maybe each user has a "block score" which is the sum of all the reputation of everyone who's blocked them), then that user should be flagged for the moderators to look into. (Someone who gets blocked occasionally but has been around for a long time might just be crotchety and not harmful, but someone who gets blocked by a huge number of people in a short period would probably indicate malice.)
Dirtside on June 4, 2011 8:38 AMSuspension and the various banning types should require multiple moderators agreeing about it. If you search for "suspended" on meta.stackoverflow, you'll find a lot of posts like this: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/65073/why-was-this-account-suspended where suspension doesn't seem that justified.
Tamás Szelei on June 4, 2011 9:09 AM(Risking hellbanning)...
The Great Brain would make a fantastic movie, don't you think? Somebody like Walden Media should get right on that.
Paul Reid on June 4, 2011 10:37 AM@LukeMorton: You're talking about PLONK as it was called on usenet. I am not sure if you're an older user, but to PLONK was to put someone in a "killfile" which the usenet client would use to magically erase a posters messages from the newsgroup(s).
I am sure there were downsides, but it was a well-used and, I think, well-regarded system.
Tcv on June 4, 2011 10:53 AM@Tcv, to be clear, your killfile hid problematic posts from *you*, but it did not actually erase those posts from the newsgroup.
George V. Reilly on June 4, 2011 11:09 AMI'm probably stating the obvious, but for people who have already accrued large amounts of rep, a representation of respect, shouldn't we have a sort of pentalty system which detracts that hard earned rep in *BIG* ways? After all, they're losing respect.
I'd like it so people who offend get a black mark on their profile, visible only to people with lots of rep, creating a "criminal record" so to speak of bad behaviour on an acccount, and each associated criminal act associated with an account has respective rep reductions connected to it.
ie:
[ Suspended for 2 days for { crime type }, and charged 2000 rep, ]
At least that way, if the discussion at some latter date concludes the conclusion was wrong, the rep charge can be repealed.
( to be similar to our real-world criminal justice system )
At least this way, we've got more "Sane" tools to deal with high rep people on occasional offenses, and more sane tools to track habbitual offenders.
As for people already with low rep, I don't see what a any of the above techniques would do, all they have to do is *suspect* they're being hellbanned/slowbanned and then do what it takes to thrawt the system, whether it be in-band abuse( account jumping ) or out-of-band ( trolling networks outside the scope of the ban ).
KENTNL on June 4, 2011 11:40 AMBah. Fail. I put some comment in there between "<" for style purposes, and it nuked the whole thing.
Aforementioned "criminal record" entry would have a link to a controlled discussion containing the members involved with incident, cited evidence of allegations of abusive behaviour ( that is not editable content, hardcopy ) allowing "offenders" and accusers to flesh it out, but not have the general public giving their 2 cents all over the place.
Perhaps we can add "jurors" at some stage who can vote on guilty/not guilty at some point in the discussion, but I haven't thought that part through yet.
@Shane The point of hellbanning is not to teach a lesson, neither is it punishment, it's to save an online community. It should only be applied to people who have failed and failed again to learn their lessons.
Though hellbanning seems on its surface to be cruel and unusual, when you run a community where you have to deal with malicious internet trolls, you quickly realize that there are precious few options for dealing with serious trolls. If you want to have a relatively open community, then it becomes trivial for the troll to register new accounts. You can ban IPs, but proxies are widespread and easy to use. When you don't have the normal meatspace methods of enforcing social norms, you have to be creative.
Gabe Da Silveira on June 4, 2011 12:22 PMSorry, but you have to be some sort of stupid if you don't realise that you are hellbanned/slowbanned/errorbanned. These things are incredibly simple to figure out and work around.
That said, at sites like SO I find it easy to ignore the fools, because the good answers are voted up by real users.
MJ on June 4, 2011 12:34 PMThe problem with Hellbanning (or any other invisible banning) is that there is no feedback loop from the user who was banned.
That means it's hard to identify cases when moderator banned user by mistake.
If there is no banned user feedback to moderator - it's hard to improve moderation skills.
That problem is especially serious, when banning is done by automoderator.
Bottom line: it's better be open about ban and don't hide it from anywhere.
@DontCare4Free, I wouldn't be too receptive to banning by IP address- if somebody in the office is screwing with SO it's a bit of a sledgehammer-to-crack-a-nut approach to excluding somebody, making everybody else suffer in the process.
Chris on June 4, 2011 1:02 PMNote that there's been a relevant discussion started on Meta StackOverflow here: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/93806
all users are equal, apart from some users who are more equal than other ones.
Steve Parker on June 4, 2011 2:03 PMThe Great Brain - great reference!
Juln on June 4, 2011 2:40 PMI'm one of the relics from the BBS era, and it wasn't just Citadel that did the progressive levels of bans. 8/10 boards that you would call - especially those that accepted money for better access had something like that in place.
I made a change, early on to WwiV that would randomly inject high bit ASCII into a user's editor any time they tried to post a message or reply. There was a function key that allowed the SysOp to do that manually, but nothing automatically based on an access restriction. I used that for people who posted mostly flames or noise, but really helped drive the on line games and file transfers. Usually, those users would get sick of the 'noise' and just go play games or upload files.
File leeches were a major problem. If you set your system up so that users _had_ to participate in messaging before downloading stuff, they'd give you crap that you'd end up deleting and go get what they wanted. For these special people, I'd wait until their download started then pick up the phone and start dialing "mary had a little lamb" until even Zmodem couldn't make sense out of it. They'd give up and go away, instead of trying to make a bunch of new accounts that they saw as a likely waste of time.
I had an 'invisible' bit that I could set, but I can't ever remember finding a good reason to use it. Since we networked message boards via store and forward, it was really easy for the user to figure out what happened, get mad and become even more annoying.
It wasn't just a hobby for me, not long after launching I went massively multi line and started seeing a profit after Ma Bell and the electric company got their share. I had to keep the place relatively restriction free without allowing a few people to make enough noise to turn away paying customers.
When you come down to it, the real art here is to gently nudge people into doing the things that they are good at while keeping out the people who just have nothing positive to offer.
Sorry for the book, you made me feel a bit nostalgic.
Tinkertim on June 4, 2011 2:47 PMI've been a victim (and I find that wording correct) of hellbanning before. It was known to me pretty soon simply because I had a friend on the board, which on that very same day eventually lead to me to find my posts weren't being seen by him.
The reason I got hellbanned on this particular news site was because I was somewhat critic of the journalist integrity of one of the staff members. I wasn't abusive in any way. Neither I was motivated by some kind of trolling behavior. Just, if you will, one of those difficult members of the community who may sometimes become inconvenient.
Now, what this technique revealed to me is that this puts a lot of power in the hands of whatever moderators/admins are in charge of a community. The fact this is unknown to anybody allows for all types of abuse. Including quieting down inconvenient voices. That one may guarantee they will never abuse this type of ban, serves very little purpose. Motivations play a significant role in thwarting initial good intentions into seemingly correct actions that are no more than abuses of power. Our brain is very good in entering defensive mode when we are performing bad actions and finding justifications. It can be ultimately said that bad people don't necessarily feel they are doing bad things. Good people find it even easier.
For any community praising itself of following a democratic role, this presents another problem. Democracy isn't simply a set of values around the principle of equality. It comprises too principles of Justice. Not giving someone even the right of being warned that an action was taken against them is not democratic. It's dictatorial. I can understand that some limits may be imposed (like not giving the person a chance to defend themselves) due to time, personnel or technical circumstances. But there's something fundamentally wrong about a community that includes a mechanism that punishes bad behavior without informing the punished of this decision.
I could never support hellbanning. I find it vicious and, since we are discussing this in terms of a community that is being spoken of as democratic, immoral.
Mario Figueiredo on June 4, 2011 6:42 PMYou say that you try to uphold democratic values but I see no evidence of the recognition of anyone's rights, or any kind of due process that you or any other moderator employs before punishing your "citizens" with your various and cruel forms of ostracism.
So maybe what you are apologizing for in your essay is that you fail to run a republic based on laws which all its citizens must follow, and which no one is above.
I suspect that what you actually run is a pure democracy where the tyranny of the herded majority is completely unrestrained.
I myself have engaged in online communities since the mid 80s, on a topic that remains one of the nastiest on the Internet: Scientology. I've been kicked off of many, and they all share the same self-satisfied smugness - either Pro-Scientology or Con - that they are protecting the rest of the community from the "disruptive ones".
The fact is that democracies can not stand the true individual who willfully stands apart from the herd. Look what they did to Socrates in the democracy of Athens 2500 years ago.
And look - People like you still are still doing it today.
For an online community to uphold all the ideals you seem to wish to forward, you must have due process - an objective, fair method of justice, where one's accusers must present their specific accusations to those accused, and for objective rules of evidence to be fairly applied to each, among other rudimentary system of laws which are built into republics.
But that's too expensive in terms of time, energy, and tolerance for views which board owners and moderators would rather wipe with toilet paper from the typical message board.
So don't kid yourself, or anyone else. You do not uphold democratic ideals, or recognize and uphold anyone's rights to the freedom of thought, or to the freedom of speech. You run a tyranny, a cruel and stupid tyranny of the majority, just like the Athens which destroyed Socrates.
And you do this only because you can't be bothered to run anything else.
So if you want to know what you are doing to people, and why people react so strongly to your stunted hubris, read this article:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/05/110510151216.htm
Alanzo
http://www.alanzosblog.blogspot.com
The problem with slow-banning or error-banning is that the person may take to the social media streets bitching about how slow/crappy your site is, and while you might be laughing inside, you really don't want that do you?
I'm a big fan of hell banning.
Daryn on June 4, 2011 8:39 PM@Shane:
>All of these seem like permanent solutions to hide the bad community members.
>Since they, in theory, don't know what is going on, they won't learn a lesson
That depends on what your goal is. If it's to act as a user etiquette education site then you've failed, but if it's to provide an enjoyable experience for participants then you've succeeded. In any case I suspect that the sort of people who need to be hellbanned aren't educatable with anything less than a 2x4.
typepad_user on June 4, 2011 8:55 PMHellbanning, slowbanning, etc. are counterproductive. Yes, they can be very effective at frustrating and isolating problem users, but at a cost:
None of these problems are insurmountable or intolerable. However, they *do* seem to generate more noise for community members, and more work for moderators than straightforward, transparent bans do when implemented properly.
"When implemented properly" is the key phrase here, of course. It's hard for moderators not to have the last word -- we naturally want to be seen as fair, want people (especially the one being banned) to understand the actions we take, and so the natural reaction is to feed the drama beast. Minimizing ban-related drama involves:
These tips won't *end* the ban-related drama -- nothing does that -- but they can help *mitigate* it. Rather than avoiding the issue with hellbans and the like, dealing with it directly and moving on quickly won't let things fester. More importantly, the direct approach prevents legitimate users from interpreting every lag or lack of response as a possible reprimand or an attempt to manipulate the voice of the community.
HedgeMage on June 4, 2011 10:26 PMRemember that these are common techniques used in Chinese censorship, too.
killerswan on June 4, 2011 11:35 PM"Remember that these are common techniques used in Chinese censorship, too."???
What's the meaning of this????---http://www.greenlaserpointer.org is ever ready to make a over-speced high stability green laser pointer or portable green lasers for u .
Don't be sly. If someone is banned, they're banned. They need to know it. Let the person know they're being banned. What you don't need to do is let everyone else know. This isn't the middle ages where we flail people in the public square for entertainment purposes. If someone needs to be banned for a while, the whole world doesn't have to know.
Another possibility is putting people's posts on moderation. They can still post, but nothing shows up unless a moderator approves their post. Have all the people who've earned "trusted user" have the power to approve moderated posts. You can even set it up, so they can't reject a post: Either approve a post, or pass on it. Maybe another moderator will approve it.
If you're worried about arbitrary abuse of powers, create an appeal process where the user can plead their case before other moderators.
By the way, instead of banned, why not call it a "timeout"?
David W. on June 5, 2011 6:32 AMThis sort of reminds me how they ban people on 4chan. One time I used it on a cell phone. And they banned me. The next time I browsed the site they gave me a message saying "Oh noes, I can't browse 4chan on my cell phone :o!!!" and also a message saying "you are banned". They obviously didnt like people browsing their site with cell phones. I dont comment very much because I'm afraid I might make a comment that's not of high quality. Though I love your site, I linked to you from my blog.
blackturbokitty on June 5, 2011 11:51 AMWelcome to the wonderful walled garden with the hidden fence.
Erik9000 on June 5, 2011 12:06 PMI once implemented a full justice system on a forum. Mods (police) would give tickets to the troublemakers citing a reason and link to offending post. Then the user was prompted to plead guilty or innocent. If guilty they would be fined (currency/reputation), and if innocent a forum post would be created in Court where they could plead their case. Mods would then vote for majority guilty/innocent or an admin/Judge could make a final ruling. If a user can't afford their fine, they are jailed, where they can only post in the Prison forum until their time is up (time and fine increased with each infraction). It actually worked really well and was a fun experiment. Only problem was that some people intentionally got in trouble to talk to inmates, so I had to implement a limited use "Just Visiting" card.
dsims on June 5, 2011 3:08 PMAlthough I confess a quiver of delight at the 'hella hellban' (where hellbanned users live in a world composed entirely of hellbanned users), it just seems too Prohibition-y for me; apart from exploit/hack attempts, the only time I ban anyone is for spamming iff the spam is obvious.
If you were running a 'walled garden' forum - for Apple users, religious nutjobs, .mil/law enforcement or some other 'correct line' ideological straitjacket - maybe in those retarded cases the barely-adequate psychic defences of the readership need to be protected from the cognitive dissonance that can be generated by the idea-marketplace. But apart from that, I favour 'open slather' - where good ideas win and bad ideas get ignored and go die in a corner after writing a final batshit-insane 1500-word single-para allcaps post.
Otherwise you're saying it's OK to put Jews in the ghetto. And much as I deplore anybody who thinks that they're superior to me on the basis of a foreskin-swap first organised by an Iron Age goatherd... well, ghettoes are bad.
As Chomsky wrote - if we don't believe in freedom of expression for those whose ideas we despise, we don't really believe in it at all.
Ideas, /b/rothers... it's all about the ideas. The ban paradigm stems from the same idea-sump as the worst aspects of political correctness: it implicitly asserts that the poor frail reader is a delicate flower who is incapable of overlooking the horror of a few words on a webpage. That's TEH ghey, frankly.
Marketmentat on June 5, 2011 3:35 PMAll these comparisons with real life democracy are all too childish. Yet so often triggered !
If you look just a little bit at it, the real life game and the online community game has so few in common, in terms of incentive, punishments and behaviors !
In real life actions have heavy and very real consequences.
Real life laws have been crafted for centuries of all types of experiences entangled all together. And it's far from perfect. Sometimes don't you wish real life societies had the efficiency of some online communities ?
So before one goes Rousseau, crying out loud, calling the admin a tyran and demanding a grand jury and full transparency for every single case, maybe one could think and comes to realise why democracy is not just a cure it all patch that can be mindlessly and equaly applied with success to any group of people. (Not likely to happen)
Is the benevolent moderator a judge, a highly trained professional well paid by your taxes money , just to behave in perfect equity ?
Is the user a citizen, paying taxes, whose misbehavior could bring him to real jail, someone so involved that the website owes him explanations for every move ?
I 'd stop citizening and keep using or not, but in peace !
Oubadacor on June 5, 2011 4:36 PMThis sounds like an extension of the methods that appear in Phil and Alex's Guide to Web Publishing.
Vince Kraemer on June 5, 2011 6:59 PMIf you want it to be democratic, how about going to the home of democracy - ancient Greece - and reintroducing ostracism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracism
I mean, we can vote on most things, and communities would pretty rapidly exclude troublemakers - thus reducing the burden of the 'who has been banned and why' conversation.
Just a thought.
Andrew Burns on June 6, 2011 1:20 AMJust as an aside, why the snidey comment about clueless programmers? When I read the first paragraph about hellbanning I thought what a cool idea. And if someone independently reinvents it then good for them. We are not all so completely immersed in social software.
But thinking about all these forms of censorship some more I just don't like it. It all seems to stem from the basic assumption that "we", the community are all calm, rational people and that "they" are just troublemakers and trollers. As someone above mentioned though what if "we" are the scientologists? Or what if "we" are some protest group with an inclination to extremism and "they" are the small minority saying hang on, let's just calm down a bit.
There is such a danger of a community becoming ever more self-defining and rejecting minority views.
What's good for the online world should apply to the real world too. What about freedom of speech? Should the majority of the population be able to silence a minority because they don't agree with their views? Perhaps protest marches should be banned if they risk upsetting the majority?
Dunno, there's something smug and elitist about it.
What I'd most like is for everyone to be able to rate a comment either positive or negative (or maybe even with a tag). Then display both the positive and negative counts and let the user sort on either. Because a high negative count may be interesting - what did that person say to create so much feeling?
Since accounts are free, banning a user is suboptimal. As soon as he notices, he got banned, he can just create a new account and stir up trouble again. Thus a hidden ban is definitely preferable to one, where the user knows he got banned. However, all the bans you mentioned above will sooner or later cause the user to notice he got banned, so all these bans are suboptimal, too. I would personally go with an gradual hellban system instead.
Every user gets a trouble counter. People with enough reputation (or possible only moderators) can vote to ban a user; if a user gets enough votes, his trouble counter is increased by one. On the other hand, you said you are against bans for life, so you could have an automated unban system: Every 7 days the trouble counter of a user is decreased by one, so if a user behaves okay for long enough, his trouble counter will eventually reach zero again.
The trouble counter is used to calculate a partial hellban: A trouble counter of 1 means 50%, a trouble counter of 2 means 75%, a trouble counter of 3 means 87.5% and so on. 50% means that 50% of everything a user does (asking a question, answering a question, posting a comment) is hellbanned or IOW, only every second question/answer/commend of this user is ever visible to other users, the other half is visible to the user himself (and maybe moderators), but not to any other community members. That way a user can stir up much less trouble than he could before. If he still stirs up too much trouble, his trouble counter will increase and even more of his contributions are hellbanned. However, since not all is hellbanned immediately, he will still get feedback to some contributions and thus won't immediately notice he got banned, as he cannot tell if he got no feedback to other contributions because of a ban or just because people keep ignoring him.
This form of soft hellban is much more democratic than a full hellban, since you are not taking any right away of this user, you only "limit" his rights temporarily. It is like putting someone in jail, which is not supposed to take his right of freedom away, but to temporarily limit it (even a prisoner has a certain degree of freedom left in most countries; a lot less than he used to of course). In your case, you are limiting this user's right of free speech, not by taking this right away, but only by making him produce less noise within a certain community for a certain amount of time.
Mecki on June 6, 2011 3:53 AMBut the vast majority of internet users aren't interrested at all by a website internal politics.
And the very few ones who pretend they truely are should probably get a more meaning full life outside instead don't you think ?
Install a true democracy in any online community. Most likely ends up as a nolifecracy.
Has anybody ever seen a truely well working online democracy ? please let us know, come on inspire us all please !
Yay freedom of expression. However, if you let a forum be a free-for-all, with no moderation, you don't get freedom of expression.
When someone particularly unpleasant starts to dominate discussions, lead them somewhere unrelated to the topic of the site, abuse other users, and so on, more polite people simply stop discussing anything in that forum because there is no place for them there. The forum has been taken over, and usually people aren't even discussing the original topic anymore, just screaming out their own pet points above the din.
I'll defend your right to say whatever you want, as long as you express your point as an argument and don't go off on tangents where you personally insult everyone who doesn't instantly agree.
Haven't made my mind up about Hellbanning, but Slow and Error banning are bad ideas.
If I visit your site and it's buggy or slow because of technical issues, should I assume that I'm being chastised and just not come back?
Nick Hannum on June 6, 2011 7:20 AMHellbanning sounds so perfect. Definitely do it! :D
Matthew DiTrolio on June 6, 2011 8:18 AMHellbanning is called bozoizing on bbpress. Hellbanned are bozos there.
A less offensive-programers-snob and more funny-developper-friendly-user-centered term.
One might prefer it for the troups morale !
I'd be okay with the hellban, except for the part where no one knows. That sort of thing leads to admin-abuse, not democracy.
What if mods could hellban a user, but that information is freely available to users with rep >= 3000. Those users (only) can view comments/answers by the hellbanned user, and can vote on them as constructive. If enough comments/answers are voted as constructive, the mod's hellban is overridden and the user is unbanned.
Blue Raja on June 6, 2011 12:39 PMDoes anyone remember the old GameCube game, "Eternal Darkness"?
I'm suddenly having the strangest suspicion that I was being "insanitybanned" from it for disruptive behaviour.
When my StackOverflow screen starts melting or being obscured by swarms of buzzing flies, don't think I won't be ONTO you people!
Matthew on June 6, 2011 2:23 PMI'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the technique of "disemvoweling" nuisance posts pioneered on nielsenhayden.com/makinglight.
The idea is to signal disapproval and a warning not by deleting previous disruptive posts, but by making them look ridiculous. (Th pst cn stll b rd wth sm ffrt, bt t dsn't dsrpt th cnvrstn nymr) This is then combined with flagging a user for moderation for some time period - so that there's a delay between when they post and when it appears, but also so that future posts are examined by a moderator before going live. It's been pretty effective there, and on boingboing.
Of course, this requires some active forum moderators, which might not scale to the stackoverflow/stackexchange model. (Then again, it might if moderators only responded when things were flagged)
dtm.livejournal.com on June 7, 2011 3:57 AMThis makes a lot of sense. One of the few (very few) things I like about how the Yahoo! community works is that when someone reports a user or post and that report is accepted, that person's reporting influence goes up. When the report is rejected his or her reporting influence goes down.
Jim Fell on June 7, 2011 2:05 PM"Hellbanning" is becoming so ubiquitous (particularly on newspaper sites...) that aspiring trolls have already found the obvious solution; simply create a "stealth" account to check and see if they can view their posts from the "troll" account from time to time.
Got banned? Can't see your posts? Create new troll account. Laugh at moderators; "Ha, ha - you so smart."
This tactic also works perfectly well against "errorbanning" and "slowbanning." Simply check using the stealth account. No errors? Site working fine? Time for a new troll account!
What I think more (any?) sites should do is revive an ancient concept - the killfile. Let the users themselves decide who they don't want to hear from any more, on an individual basis. Point at a troll's post, press the "Killfile" button, and you - *just you* - don't see any posts from this guy again. This allows maximum flexibility and puts each user in charge of his online experience.
This amounts to a personal-basis hellbanning. The troll vanishes from the radar of each user who finds him annoying - yet his posts remain. All he knows is that apparently no one feels the need to respond to him any longer ... and the few newbies who do respond aren't providing enough fodder for his ego. He rides off into the sunset.
Dexter Lane on June 8, 2011 1:56 AM@LukeMorton: The main argument against employing plonking / killfiling comes from the operators of the site, who reason that leaving piles of troll-posts around could discourage new users from "signing up" and participation in the community.
Speaking for myself, I don't find this argument compelling. I think most new users evaluate the site primarily on the basis of the content itself, and the quality of comments are way down the list. Everyone has been to the internet rodeo by now, and we all know comments are the new usenet.
As a previous poster mentioned, the best solution is a blend of both solutions. Let the users individually plonk posters they no longer want to hear from, and reserve banning / removal of posts for the operators in the case of truly egregious (racism, pr0n, etc...) posts which will reflect badly on the site.
Dexter Lane on June 8, 2011 2:11 AMI have to agree with what a few people have already said. The personal ban has always been the most effective method. This was a wonderful feature on Kali. Simply /ban annoyinguser and suddenly you don't hear from them any more.
Really annoying users would be instantly banned by about 50% of the population. The rest could decide if they wanted to keep seeing those posts or not.
Jeffrey Davis on June 8, 2011 7:05 AMCan hellbanning be redefined as when a user has so worn out his welcome at Stack Overflow that he begins to see fake post answers that point him to an answer at Experts Exchange? :D
That is the most cruel form of punishment for any programmer.
Tjboudreaux on June 8, 2011 7:27 AMI personally like the concept of hell-banning. what I think is more important is thinking about the limitations placed around this ability. How often can a user be hell-banded? what happens to their posts after the ban has expired? can other users choose to view banned posts? these kinds of questions are what need to be considered when placing a community regulated system in place.
Nathan Tregillus on June 8, 2011 11:19 AMIs the Wired (clueless software developers @ http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/17-04/st_thompson) link broken?
www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=648286812 on June 10, 2011 11:53 AMNot so sure how well hellbanning would work in an online forum, but I've always thought it would be a particularly effective in online gaming; For example, make Xbox Live trolls end up always matched with outher trolls, a "Kiddie Pool" of sorts.
As for message boards, there's one particular problem I've seen with a lot of forums that would seem to be completely immune to this type of moderation: Snobbery. For example, I used to semi-regularly visit a particular popular food and cooking board, and in general, I found it to be highly moderated, but at the same time there was very little of what could be identified as trolling taking place on the board, and what little did make it there generally got taken care of quickly. At the same time, the amount of snobbery going on this board is so ridiculous as to make the board completely and totally useless. Looking for some feedback on a recipe? Get ready to be told that you're eating pig slop, and that you should really be making (recipe that contains all sorts of ingredients costing twice as much and takes twice as long.) Looking for a restaurant in your neighborhood? You'll be told that everywhere but (some place 20 miles away costing twice as much) is the only place you should be going. And don't you dare admit to liking any chain restaurants or any leading national brand products or you'll be denounced about twenty-seven different ways, none of which actually infringe the rules of the board, but basically make the place unwelcoming to anyone outside of the hippie-organic-megabuck clique that "runs" the place.
Oh, and I thought the Oracle forums were just crappy jive software.
Slash on June 13, 2011 4:33 PMIn my opinion, these techniques are as recommended in online communities, as torture is in real life: not at all!
Luvieere on June 14, 2011 4:47 AMstackoverflow is rubbish these days. no one ever answers my questions, it takes forever to load, and I keep getting random error messages
Mark Heath on June 15, 2011 12:12 PMIt seems to me that this problem has had a solution which has stood the test of time for millennia. Shunning. Whether it was ancient Babylon or 19th century London the act of shunning someone (for specified periods of time, even life) has achieved the goal of weeding out undesirable individuals from the group.
All that is needed in the web world is a point system for members (which you already have). Members which contribute the most have the most points. These people's opinions count the most. If a high point user shuns another user, that shunning counts severely against the shunned. Also if a high point user is shunned the shunning counts less against them. High contributing members may be attacked or maligned at random and sometimes this means the user is actually doing a good job. In other words, the users held in high regard are protected more from random shunnings.
When a user hits a predefined threshold of shun points vs. Their esteem points they are shunned by the entire group for a preset period of time and told so. The shunned are always overtly ignored. With each subsequent shunning more time is added until a shun threshold is reached at which point they are excommunicated.
The shunned and excommunicated always have at ther disposal the petition system. They may ask for forgiveness (or point out the error of the shunning like "someone stole my account."). The petitions are sent to those that did the shunning and they may decide to not shun them anymore.
This process works orit would not still be in use by churches and organizations around the world.
Just a thought.
Paul
Paul Perrick on June 18, 2011 5:14 AMAbout the whole issue of having to ban users being "time-wasting".
The link between this and the real-world issues around customer-complaints-procedures, workplace dismissal policies, police/judicial system is hardly tenuous.
I think if you want to be part of any community you have to accept that some people will inevitably waste your time and just try to deal with it as best you can.
In recent decades I'm most impressed with the growth of victim support/reconciliation committee-style judiciary. When the waster is confronted in public by the victim, they have more chance of repairing the damadge they have done to themselves as well as that victim.
Jo on June 22, 2011 12:21 AMToo bad "helbanned" is not an entry in either Wikipedia nor Wiktionary.
Joakim Rosqvist on June 28, 2011 6:55 AM...I think I just stumbled into the matrix.
Lorie Metz on July 11, 2011 11:23 AMI agree with that also forex robot
RE: Errorbanned,
Serve them the dreaded HTTP 418 error, "I'm a Teapot".
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2324#page-5
Don't even know what to say on this topic. So much ideas are mixed in my head after reading it. Very problematic article I thinkY8
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