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A frame $S'$ is moving in the right direction at acceleration $1\ \mathrm{m}/\mathrm{s}^2$ w.r.t. $S$. (It is not mentioned which one is inertial and which one is not. So, $S$ sees itself to be inertial and $S'$ to be non-intertial. Same is true from $S'$'s perspective too.) $S$ observes that an object is moving with acceleration $5\ \mathrm{m}/\mathrm{s}^2$ in the right direction. So, $S'$ observes the object to be moving with acceleration $4\ \mathrm{m}/\mathrm{s}^2$.

What is the "actual" net force acting on the object? By "actual" I mean, the kind of force that follows Newton's third law.

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  • $\begingroup$General tip: Consider to provide an informative title; relegate keywords to the tag line.$\endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    Commented2 days ago
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    $\begingroup$Same is true from $S'$ 's perspective too Can't be true, since in the non-inertial frames there's additional pseudo-forces are acting, so it's very easy to spot in such frames that objects are starting to move without any apparent reason or that unexplained accelerations are acting (like you are being pushed against the seat in an accelerating car without real pushing force, but your back feels it, isn't it ?). So basic premise that these frames are somewhat identical from the inside experience is FALSE.$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$The specific example that you gave (you felt pushed back backwards) does not indicate that you are in an "absolute" non-inertial frame. You felt pushed back because you treated Earth as an inertial frame and your nervous system wants to keep you vertical w.r.t Earth, where as, inside the car the new vertical is tilted. Isn't it?$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$@user510082 "inside the car the new vertical is tilted", that would be fine if you could find a real force that causes this tilt in the specific direction that it does. You'll be able to find no such force.$\endgroup$
    – Amit
    Commented2 days ago
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    $\begingroup$“So, $S$ sees itself to be inertial”. How does $S$ know it’s inertial?$\endgroup$
    – Bob D
    Commented2 days ago

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It is not mentioned which one is inertial and which one is not. So, S sees itself to be inertial and S′ to be non-intertial. Same is true from S′ 's perspective too.

For Newtonian mechanics, an inertial frame is one in which all of Newton's laws are valid. Therefore, wether or not a frame is inertial is not relative.

Your question cannot be answered. You actually need to state which (if any) of the frames is inertial. Otherwise, the answer could be anything depending on the acceleration of the frames relative to an inertial frame.

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  • $\begingroup$Thanks for the answer. But still have some doubts. How do I know if a frame is inertial? As you mentioned, I need to check if Newton's Laws are valid or not, but to verify if second law is valid, we need to check $F = ma$. But to know $a$ we need a reference frame. Which becomes cyclic argument.$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$@user510082 You need to consider the movements of objects on which known forces act. For example, if two equal masses are connected by a stretched spring then they will experience equal and opposite forces. So if you think they do not have equal and opposite accelerations then you cannot be measuring them in an inertial reference frame.$\endgroup$
    – gandalf61
    Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$There a problem with the test that you mentioned. Even in accelerated (w.r.t some ground) frame, the equal masses will experience equal and opposite forces due to the stretched string (plus the pseudo forced will also be equal).$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$Without an explicit definition of force, the statement that an inertial frame is one in which all of Newton's laws are valid is void. Unfortunately, not all the statements of Newton's law use the same definition of force. Therefore, to make your answer useful, you should state which definition of force you have in mind.$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$The only definition of force that I came across is "something that when applied on a body causes the body to change its stae of rest or motion". Can you let me know what other definitions of force you know?$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
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Accelerations are frame-dependent. In Newtonian Mechanics, forces (resulting from interactions) are not.

Therefore, the knowledge of the acceleration of a body in two different reference frames is not enough to say anything about the net force acting on it.

One needs an independent set of observations/experiments to find one inertial reference frame. Only in such a frame, and all the other equivalent inertial frames, is the net force given by $F=m a$.

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  • $\begingroup$This is actually same as the answer given by user:BioPhysicist. But I have a followup question regarding that: The independent set of experiments that you mentioned, is done using some instruments (e.g. accelerometer) which are calibrated in a reference frame which has been "assumed" to be inertial, in most cases Earth frame. So, isn't it true that the concept of inertial or non-inertial frames is not absolute, it too is relative.$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$@user510082 the calibration is just a way to make the device more user friendly, for example people want the device to show no acceleration when they are at rest on Earth. But in practice, the device always operates the same way and internally always senses that the surface of the Earth is not inertial in precisely the same way. There's no physical meaning to setting the device's interface so that it won't indicate that, no more than there is a physical meaning to changing your measure from Celsius to Kelvin. Absolute zero stays the same physical absolute zero.$\endgroup$
    – Amit
    Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$Can you think and elaborate this part "internally always senses that the surface of the Earth is not inertial"? Your comments are long with non-technical verbosity and lacks technical clarity.$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$@user510082 I can elaborate but I will not because anyone can find out how an accelerometer works by a simple Google search.$\endgroup$
    – Amit
    Commented2 days ago
  • $\begingroup$@user510082 It is not the same as the answer given by BioPhysicist. I explicitly stated a property of Newtonian forces. Missing that, a reference to Newton's laws is a circular argument. As far as accelerometers, I did not mention them. Their use may help, but it is not enough, in the framework of classical mechanics, to ensure that a reference frame is inertial. However this would be a new question.$\endgroup$Commented2 days ago
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You ask a good question: first off, let's consider a man standing on the ground. How does he know that there is a gravitational force present? I don't know. But if he's allowed to pick up an object, and drop it, then he can at least assume that there's a gravitational force on the object; that it's in the up-and-down direction (your question is in the left-to-right direction presumably, but it makes no difference); and that it's magnitude is $9.8$ m/s$^2$. So he writes that $\vec{g} = - 9.8 \hat{y}$. And if he knew 1) the second law $\vec{F} = m\vec{a}$, and 2) that there were no other forces present, he writes $\vec{F} = m\vec{g}$ or maybe $\vec{F}_g = mg \hat{y}$ assuming $g = -9.8$, or if you want to keep $g = 9.8$ then add a negative so $\vec{F}_g = -mg \hat{y}$

He then could assume that this force is acting on himself as well, although he's standing on the ground and not moving (nor can really perceive it). So given he already knew that $\vec{F}_{\text{net}} = m \vec{a}$, he'd have to conclude another force on the left-hand side (the normal force) so that $\vec{0} = \vec{0}$. Or, given, he already knew $\vec{F}_{\text{net}} = m \vec{a}$ and the normal-ground force, he could assume some sort of gravitational force. (What I'm trying to get at here, is that "foundation" - literally the ground - is important - but regardless, to conclude that a gravity was acting on you...well, it's kind of hard to judge yourself...but if you pick up other objects and drop them...you could recognize the gravity.)

Now to your example: According to $S$ the net force on the object is $\vec{F}_{\text{net}} = 5m \hat{x}$. The full acceleration $\vec{a}$ was in the $x$-hat direction anyways, so we didn't need to worry about gravity (maybe the object is on a table). According to $S'$, he has to be able to figure out that there's a gravity present in his frame of reference/perspective. He's stationary from his perspective (as we are too from ours, even though $-9.8$ m/s$^2$ is acting on us - yet we had to figure that out). If he were to pick up an object and drop it, it would accelerate backwards at $-1$ m/s$^2$ (in addition to the gravity we are familiar with, in the downward direction; again, maybe the object is on a table - but let's forget about that for now - he still has to recognize that if he were to pick up an object, it would accelerate partly backwards at $1$ m/s$^2$). Thus, he has a gravity in his frame. He calls the acceleration $\vec{h} = -1 \hat{x}$ and the force $\vec{F}_{\text{h}} = -mh \hat{x}$ where $h = 1$ m/s$^2$. For a sanity check, just as the man standing on the ground, the man in $S'$ has for himself that, $\vec{N} + \vec{F}_h = m\vec{a}$. Where there is some normal force $\vec{N}$. He'd find for himself that $\vec{0} = \vec{0}$. According to $S'$, the force on the object is, $\vec{F}_{\text{net}} = m \vec{a}_{\text{object}}$ or $\vec{F}_{\text{net}} = 4 m \hat{x}$ because he sees the acceleration as you say to be $4$ m/s$^2$. Filling in the forces (as you would, say, if an object is falling with air resistance) $\vec{F}_{\text{net}} = \vec{F}_{\text{something}} + \vec{F}_h$ or $\vec{F}_{\text{something}} - mh \hat{x} = 4m \hat{x}$. Or, $\vec{F}_{\text{something}} = 5m \hat{x}$.

What is the "actual" net force acting on the object? By "actual" I mean, the kind of force that follows Newton's third law.

$5m$ newtons in both cases

(As an aside: Newton's 2nd law works in so called 'non-inertial frames' - as long as you include all gravities. Thus, what we consider inertial frames have only 1 type of gravity, whereas an inertial frame in general can have more than one type of gravity. So if people want to maintain teaching words such as 'inertial' and 'non-inertial' - I don't really understand where they are coming from or what they are trying to achieve - to me it's confusion. Rewording the "coriolis force" and such forces, as "other gravities", I would say then (if I wanted to use the word 'non-inertial'), that all frames are non-inertial because all frames have gravity. The only true inertial frame (if you wanted to maintain that word) is one in which zero gravities are present)

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    What is the "actual" net force acting on the object? By "actual" I mean, the kind of force that follows Newton's third law.

    The actual net force acting on an object is $\vec a/m$ where $\vec a$ is the object’s proper acceleration. Proper acceleration is what is measured by an accelerometer.

    This answer is the most straightforward answer to your question, and it is clearly the correct approach for general relativity where gravity is modeled as curved spacetime.

    However, it also holds for Newtonian mechanics. Taking Newton’s first law seriously requires treating Newtonian gravity as curved spacetime also. This is achieved in the Newton-Cartan formulation of Newtonian gravity.

    So, S sees itself to be inertial and S′ to be non-intertial. Same is true from S′'s perspective too.

    This is not possible. At most one of these could have a proper acceleration of 0. Therefore, at most one of these two could be inertial. Being inertial is not a matter of perspective and you don’t see yourself as inertial if you are not.

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    • $\begingroup$Concerning your last paragraph, don't accelerometers need to be calibrated? Each can calibrate their own equipment, so both could be "inertial" (whatever that means - however just to let the OP know if he reads this, there's nothing wrong with his sentence that S sees itself stationary and S' as accelerating - because there are a whole lot of words, by a lot of different people. So to give him something concrete as true that he can build on, yes, it's true that both would claim that the other is accelerating)? But ur saying in your last thought that only 1 accelerometer at most would read 0?$\endgroup$
      – DWade64
      Commentedyesterday
    • $\begingroup$(and by the way, I do believe in an absolute standard - even in terms of right vs. wrong. I think denying such would be foolish (according to me haha) - It's just that every one does what is right in their own eyes. And it does seem "more reasonable" to say that, me, sitting at a desk with a water bottle, it's position with respect to me x(t) = 5. Yet if I walk away from the table, it's position with respect to me x(t) is now changing with time. And it does seem 'more reasonable' to say that I'm the one moving, than something not alive is moving away from me)..bc there's the bigger perspective$\endgroup$
      – DWade64
      Commentedyesterday
    • $\begingroup$3) (but going back to inertial vs non-inertial - I was speaking in the context of how students are taught physics from the introductory level. In all those force diagrams, did we care about gravity? Yes, but did we care about inertial vs non-inertial? Not really. But when those words are brought in later, you and me and the students now need to understand that all those force diagrams were done in non-inertial frames (because there's gravity)...But..then it's like...ok? When were we ever doing physics in inertial frames then?)$\endgroup$
      – DWade64
      Commentedyesterday
    • $\begingroup$@DWade64 Accelerometers as a general class of devices do not need to be calibrated. It is indeed true that many designs of inexpensive accelerometers require calibration, but that is specific to those inexpensive designs. It is not a fundamental limitation of accelerometers in general. High end accelerometers, called gravimeters, do exist which do not require calibration. They are used by oil companies to locate oil fields, so the economic considerations are different than for the accelerometers used to detect which direction you are holding your phone$\endgroup$
      – Dale
      Commented23 hours ago

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