KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: legal limits. A federal judge threatens to hold the Trump administration in criminal contempt for defying his orders, as the administration’s mass deportation efforts continue to clash with the courts.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I was elected to get rid of those criminals, to get them out of our country. I don’t see how judges can take that authority away from a president.
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
This is about due process. This is about not letting people be just whisked off the street, which the Trump administration admits was done in error.
PAM BONDI:
There was no situation ever where he was going to stay in this country. None, none.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I’ll speak with Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland who traveled to El Salvador to meet with the man the Trump administration mistakenly deported. Plus: price hikes. The federal reserve chair warns President Trump’s tariffs are “highly likely” to raise inflation, leading the president to lash out.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
If I want him out, he’ll be out of there real fast, believe me.
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN:
If Chairman Powell can be fired by the president of the United States, it will crash markets in the United States.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can the independent central bank survive? I’ll speak with Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana. And: progressive energy. Senator Bernie Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are drawing huge crowds at rallies across the country.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ:
I don’t think this is Trump country. I think this is our country.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Donald Trump, obey the Supreme Court of the United States.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is the new anger on the left a challenge for Democrats or a movement they can get behind? Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Capitol Hill Correspondent Melanie Zanona; New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker; María Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino; and Marc Short, former Director of Legislative Affairs for President Trump. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. President Trump’s standoff with the courts is escalating as his mass deportation plans are facing multiple legal challenges. On Saturday, the Supreme Court temporarily blocked the Trump administration from deporting a group of Venezuelan migrants under an 18th century wartime law. A federal judge is now threatening to hold the administration in criminal contempt for refusing the judge’s order to turn around planes filled with deportees headed for a prison in El Salvador. And the Supreme Court has ordered the Trump administration to “facilitate” the return of one of those deportees, Kilmar Abrego Garcia, who the Justice Department admitted was deported due to an “administrative error.” The issue at the center of this case is “due process” protections: a constitutional protection guaranteed to all individuals in the United States regardless of their citizenship status. Abrego Garcia was not given a hearing before he was deported. But the White House is so far refusing to act, arguing Abrego is a member of a violent gang, MS-13, accusations his wife and attorney deny.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They want this man to be brought back into our country, where he can be free, and to stay as a happily Maryland - you know, a happily - they call him the Maryland man. He’s a Maryland father. No, this is a violent person.
PAM BONDI:
ICE testified. An immigration judge ruled that he was a member of MS-13. An appellate judge ruled that he was a member of MS-13. Hard stop. He should not be in our country.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
El Salvador’s president, meeting with President Trump in the Oval Office this week, also refused to send him back.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. NAYIB BUKELE:
How can I smuggle a terrorist into the United States? I don’t - I don’t have the power to return him to the United States.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Abrego Garcia, married to a U.S. citizen and a father of three with a work permit in Maryland, entered the U.S. illegally in 2011. He’s never been charged with a crime in the U.S. and has no criminal record in the U.S. or El Salvador. And in 2019, a judge ruled he should not be deported to El Salvador because of fears for his safety. This week, Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland traveled to El Salvador to push for the release of Abrego Garcia, but was denied entry to the prison.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
If you deny the constitutional rights of one man, you threaten the constitutional rights and due process for everyone else in America.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Van Hollen did meet with Abrego Garcia in El Salvador. El Salvador’s president shared images of the meeting on social media where he mocked the Senator’s visit. The White House saying of Abrego Garcia, “he’s not coming back,” while attacking Senator Van Hollen’s trip.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Look, he’s a fake. I know ‘em. I know ‘em all. They’re all fake. And they have no interest in that prisoner. That prisoner’s record is unbelievably bad. Our people voted for me to get them out. They want them out. They want them out. And we’ve done a hell of a job.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Trump even floated the idea this week that he might deport U.S. citizens to foreign prisons.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We always have to obey the laws, but we also have homegrown criminals that push people into subways, that hit elderly ladies on the back of the head with a baseball bat, when they’re not looking, that are absolute monsters. I’d like to include them in the group of people, and get them out of the country, but you’ll have to be looking at the laws on that.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland. Senator Van Hollen, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Kristen, good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's wonderful to have you. I know you've had a long several days, so we really appreciate your being here in person. You just returned from El Salvador, as I just laid out, to meet with Mr. Abrego Garcia. You were rebuffed multiple times from entering the prison where he was initially being held, CECOT. He has, as you said, been moved since then to a different facility. Did you accomplish what you set out to, on this trip?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
I did. I had two missions. One was to ask the government of El Salvador to not be complicit in this illegal scheme with the Trump administration and to release him. I made that request to the vice president. They denied that request. My other major purpose was to just see Abrego Garcia, to see if he's alive. Nobody has heard from him since he was disappeared. He tried to make a phone call from the Baltimore Detention Center after he was illegally abducted, but he couldn't do that. So my purpose was to meet with him, to be able to tell his wife, Jennifer, and his family that he was alive. And, despite all the circumstances, he said that his biggest worry was about his family.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it was an emotional news conference with his wife standing there with you. You know, while you were in El Salvador, the White House was counter-programming, effectively releasing information about Mr. Abrego Garcia's background, including a police report suggesting he's a member of MS-13, details about a restraining order from his wife, who ultimately dropped the matter, and a police report in which an officer said he suspected Mr. Abrego Garcia may have been involved in human trafficking. Now, he's never been charged with a crime. But is his past complicating the broader argument that you are trying to make here about due process?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Well, what Donald Trump is trying to do is change the subject. Let's make no - make no bones about that, right? This subject is that the Trump administration is ignoring a supreme court order, nine to nothing, to facilitate his return because they admitted in court - they, the Trump administration - that he'd been wrongfully detained. Now, what I have said is Donald Trump and his administration need to put up or shut up in court. Instead of litigating this through social media, here's what the judge in the court case said. And I want to read it to be precise. On April 16th, she said that, "The Trump administration had presented no evidence. No evidence linking Abrego Garcia to MS-13 or to any terrorist activity," end quote. So if you have evidence, take it to the court. That's where we litigate these things. And otherwise, just shut up on social media.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You know, the other thing that we witnessed at the White House this week, Patty Morin, the mother of Rachel Morin, who is a Maryland woman who was murdered by an undocumented immigrant, you're very familiar with this, was at the White House. And she did speak from the White House briefing room. I want to play you a little bit of what she had to say and get your reaction on the other side. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
PATTY MORIN:
To have a senator from Maryland, who didn't even acknowledge – or barely acknowledged my daughter and the brutal death that she endured, leaving her five children without a mother, and now a grandbaby without a grandmother, so that he can use my taxpayer money to fly to El Salvador to bring back someone that's not even an American citizen. Why does that person have more right than I do, or my daughter?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your response to Mrs. Morin?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
My heart goes out to the Morin family. They suffered, experienced an unspeakable tragedy in the murder of their daughter. And I-- I said at the time that my heart goes out to the Morin family. And I'm very glad that the killer of Rachel has been convicted in a court of law. That is how we hold guilty people accountable. The courts of law are also where people get to have their due process so we don't unfairly punish people who don't have criminal records. And so my view is you can crack down and hold guilty people accountable and also respect the due process rights of everybody who is in court. And I'm not sure why Abrego Garcia's rights should be denied based on an awful murder that he had absolutely nothing to do with.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the broader optics of this trip. You actually posted your meeting on social media after it took place. The president of El Salvador also posted one on social media trying to mock the moment. He said, quote, "Kilmar Abrego Garcia miraculously risen from the ‘death camps’ & ‘torture’, now sipping margaritas with Sen. Van Hollen in the tropical paradise of El Salvador!" Now, you said these drinks were staged. Essentially, brought over by waiters who were ordered to do so by the El Salvadoran government. Do you think you walked into a trap here set up by the president of El Salvador?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Absolutely not. They had no intention of letting me meet with Abrego Garcia until they felt the pressure. They felt the pressure from people saying, "Why are you, you know, complicit in this illegal scheme? Why are you denying his wife, his lawyer, or anybody the opportunity to speak with him?" So my mission was to be able to say that he is at least alive. You're right. You - it’s the lengths that both, you know, the - the El Salvadoran President Bukele, and Donald Trump will go to deceive people are boundless, right? In this case, they did order the waiters – the government people, to bring these two glasses that, you know, appear to be margaritas. I have no idea. We didn't touch them. And they tried to manipulate it so - make it look like Mr. Abrego Garcia's Margarita had been drunk. In other words, the liquid was lower. But, they screwed up in their scheme because if you look at the rims of the glasses, I don't know if it was salt or sugar, but there's no gap in them. So, nobody touched the margaritas. They want to pretend that this is some sort of tropical paradise, when he was in one of the most notorious prisons in the world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You think it was pressure – was that the key reason, you think why the government ultimately, as you're about to leave El Salvador, brought him to you?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Yes, absolutely. I think the images of soldiers blocking us from trying to see Mr. Abrego Garcia and the press conferences we had with local media where I pointed out that El Salvador is actually violating international law by preventing Mr. Abrego Garcia from having any communication with anybody.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The White House says Mr. Abrego Garcia is never coming back, senator. How far are you willing to go to bring him back to the United States?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Well, the Supreme Court has said they must facilitate his return. And they have the option of holding Trump administration lawyers in contempt for refusing to do that. I know that the embassy in El Salvador has not been instructed by the administration to lift a finger in accordance with the court order. Now, Attorney General Bondi did say the United States would send an airplane down. So when I met with the vice president of El Salvador, I said, "Of course, we're not asking you to smuggle Abrego Garcia back to the United States. Just open the prison, let him walk out, and then Attorney General Bondi said she'll send a plane." So, there are also pressures we can put on the government of El Salvador, including through, you know - you know, people deciding not to invest in El Salvador, Americans not traveling to El Salvador. So I think there are other pressure points here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You mention the courts. Given the fact that the Supreme Court has ordered the administration to facilitate the return of Mr. Abrego Garcia - Mr. Abrego Garcia remains in El Salvador - Do you think that the Trump administration is ignoring the courts? Do you think that the country is currently in a constitutional crisis?
SEN.CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Oh, yes we are. They are very much flouting the courts as we speak. As the courts have said, “facilitating” his return means something more than doing nothing. And they are doing nothing. Yes, they're absolutely in violation of the court orders as we speak.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If this is a constitutional crisis, as you say, what should the response be from Democrats? What recourse do you have?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Well, we will keep pushing back. Again, this - the courts can impose sanctions on - on the Trump administration. The Trump administration is going to pay the government of El Salvador $15 million to take these prisoners, including the illegally abducted Abrego Garcia. I can tell you when they make that request to the Congress, and because those monies have to be appropriated, I don't think American taxpayers are going to want to spend one penny going to El Salvador to continue to hold somebody illegally and in violation of the United States Constitution.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the reaction from within the Democratic party. While some Democrats support you, others say this is not the issue that Democrats should be focused on. Governor Gavin Newsom of California calling Mr. Abrego Garcia's case, quote, "The distraction of the day." He argues Democrats are playing right into the hands of President Trump – an issue he wants to be focused on. How do you respond to Governor Newsom?
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
I don't think it's ever wrong to stand up for the constitution. And this is not about one man. If you deny the constitutional rights of one man, you threaten the constitutional rights for everybody. I think Americans are tired of elected officials or politicians who are all finger to the wind, what's blowing this way, what's blowing that way. And anybody who can't stand up for the constitution and the right of due process doesn't deserve to lead.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you so much for being here today. Please keep us posted on this matter. We really appreciate it. And do enjoy a Happy Easter with your family.
SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here. When we come back, Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. And joining me now is Republican Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana. Senator Kennedy, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. Let's start off with this case of Mr. Abrego Garcia. You heard my conversation with Senator Van Hollen. The Justice Department called the deportation of Mr. Abrego Garcia a, quote, "administrative error." The Supreme Court has ordered the government to facilitate Mr. Abrego Garcia's return. Should Mr. Abrego Garcia be returned to the United States, senator?
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
Well, Chris is my friend. And I respect him. And he's certainly entitled to his opinion. But in my judgment, he is utterly and gloriously wrong. I mean, most of this gauzy rhetoric is just rage bait. Unless you’re next-level obtuse, you know that Mr. Garcia is never coming back to the United States ever. And that's not because of President Trump. That's because of President Bukele. He said up front in the Oval Office that he was not going to return Mr. Garcia. No federal judge, even J. Wilkinson, has authority over a sovereign country. Besides that, it should not go unnoticed that Mr. Bukele is much closer to President Xi in China than he is to President Trump. Xi is spending billions of dollars to build infrastructure in El Salvador. And I wouldn't be surprised if they've discussed this case. The final point I would make, whether you agree with it or not, is Bukele hates MS-13. And Mr. Garcia, allegedly, is a member of MS-13. The other point I would make is that Chris says Mr. Garcia's had no due process. He's been in front of 17 judges, some of 'em twice, probably $5 million worth of legal fees and he hadn't had to pay a dime. Final point I'd make, look, this was a screw-up in my opinion. The administration won't admit it. But, this was a screw-up. Mr. Garcia was not supposed to be sent to El Salvador. He was sent to El Salvador. The Democrats say, "Look, you know, we told you Trump is a threat to democracy. This is going to happen every other Thursday afternoon." But, I don't see any pattern here. I mean, you know, some day pigs may fly. But, I doubt it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, so this is notable. Because you are saying, in your words, this is a screw-up. I mean, are you concerned that more mistakes could happen?
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
Well, sure. None of us want mistakes.Mistake – mistake's bad. Doing it right, good. But, it was a screw-up. And I understand why the administration has bowed up and won't admit it's a mistake. Because if they do, they'll have their throats torn out. But, it was a screw-up. I don't see any pattern here. I've been listening to my Democratic friends say for, I don't know, since God was a child, that Trump is a threat to democracy. I don't see any pattern here. I see a screw-up.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and the concern for some people is that if there's one screw-up, it does become a slippery slope. It is worth noting. Mr. Abrego Garcia has not ever been charged with a crime. And in terms of what the courts are saying, they're not saying this is under the jurisdiction of the president of El Salvador. They're saying this is the responsibility of the U.S. government, the Supreme Court ordering the Trump administration to facilitate his return. And in a ruling this week, a three-judge panel on the U.S. Court of Appeals wrote, quote, "The government is asserting a right to stash away residents of this country in foreign prisons without the semblance of due process that is the foundation of our constitutional order." Do you believe Mr. Abrego Garcia is due to have due process?
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
Well, I think, number one, he's had due process. But if your question is: Should he have been given a hearing before he was sent to El Salvador? I think the answer is yes. But let me say something about the Fourth Circuit opinion written by J. Wilkinson. Judge Wilkinson is a very clever, self-confident guy. But he left out one part in his opinion. What does he expect Trump to do? Declare war and go get Bukele. I mean, he brought Bukele to America. President Bukele sat in the Oval Office in front of God and country and said, "I'm not sending this guy back." So I don't know what Judge Wilkinson expects Trump to do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, the president could simply have asked for it back. And may have brought him. But let me ask you about something you said just a couple of months ago --
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
How do you know he hasn't? But Kristen, how do you know he hasn't?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, he has said he doesn’t plan to. I'm just basing this off of his public comments.The president said he doesn't plan to. But let me play something that you said. This is a couple months ago during a confirmation hearing for some of the president's DOJ officials. Take a listen. I'll get your reaction on the other side.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
Don't ever, ever take the position that you're not going to follow the order of a federal court. All our judiciary has – an equal branch of government has – is its legitimacy. It doesn't have an army. Don't ever say you're not going to follow the order of a court.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you believe that President Trump is following the orders of the courts right now?
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
Yes. And I don't believe that President Trump will defy a federal judge's order. If he does, I'll call him out on it. I believe what I said in the clip. I love the rule of law. I love it like the devil loves sin. I think if we start not following federal judicial orders, we undermine the system entirely. Now that doesn't mean you can't criticism. You can criticism. You can criticize him. You can appeal him. But you can't choose to not follow them. And I haven't seen President Trump do that. And if he does, I'll say very loudly and clearly that I think he's wrong.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Let me ask you about something else President Trump said this week. He said he would like to send what he calls, and I'm quoting him, "homegrown criminals," meaning U.S. citizens, to foreign prisons like the one in El Salvador. Senator, do you think the law allows the president of the United States to send U.S. citizens to a foreign prison?
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
No, ma'am. Nor does it – nor should it be considered appropriate or moral. We have our own laws. We have the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution. We shouldn't send prisoners to foreign countries in my judgment.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Let me switch gears a little bit, ask you about President Trump's agenda. Because I know you all are going to be very focused on that. Senate Republicans split right now, senator, over whether to allow tax hikes on wealthy Americans as a part of that budget bill that you're trying to pass. Bloomberg News is reporting that the House proposal would set the rate at 40% for taxpayers earning $1 million or more per year. That's up from the current top tax rate of 37%. Senator, would you support increasing the tax rate on wealthy Americans?
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
I'm not sure yet. I'd like to see the language. Here are my thoughts, Kristen, generally. I don't believe in making tax policy on the basis of class warfare. And I think the people who are raising this issue, they're entitled to it of course. But they're asking the wrong question. I listened, under President Biden, my Democratic colleagues for four years ask, "Who needs to pay more in taxes?" That to me is the wrong question. The right question is what the hell happened to the money? And I hope that's the question that we address fundamentally in the reconciliation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But senator, it sounds like you're leaving the door open to the possibility that you could ultimately at some point support an increase in taxes if you thought it was the best way to get that budget bill over the finish line.
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
Well, we're in the process of putting the bill together. And here's what'll probably happen. The House and Senate will spend about, I don't know, hopefully no more than 60 days trying to reach a consensus. Everything's on the table. We won't reach a consensus. And then we'll have to go to the White House and meet with the president. And after a few hugs and a cup of hot cocoa, the president will arbitrate here and say, "This is the in, and this is out." And then he's going to have to put his muscle behind it to pass it. But this bill's important. It's our way of lowering prices. You lower prices by cutting spending, by deregulating the economy, and by designing a tax code that looks like somebody designed it on purpose in a way that stimulates growth so wages go up.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator --
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
And that's my objective in all this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, we are almost out of time. But as you know tensions have been mounting between the president and the Fed chair. Would you support President Trump removing Jerome Powell as Fed chair?
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
I don't think the president, any president, has the right to remove the Federal Reserve chairman. I think the Federal Reserve ought to be independent. I think that Jay Powell and President Trump need to sit down and once again, have a hug and cup of hot cocoa and work it out. My experience with Jay Powell is that he's got tiger blood. He's going to do what he thinks is right. And, he's not going to go down in history as the Federal Reserve chairman that allowed the inflation to become wild as a March hare. And he's going to do what he thinks he's got to do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Kennedy, thank you so much. I want to wish you and your family a very happy --
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY:
Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– Easter. Thank you for joining us. We really appreciate it. And when we come back, how far will President Trump go in his stand-off with the courts? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Capitol Hill correspondent, Melanie Zanona, New York Times chief White House correspondent, Peter Baker, María Teresa Kumar, president of Voto Latino, and Marc Short, former director of legislative affairs under President Trump. Thank you all for being here. Happy Easter. We appreciate you being here on a holiday. Peter, let me start with you because we're talking about this matter with Mr. Abrego Garcia, but it's really much broader than that because what we're witnessing is part of a large standoff between the Trump administration and the courts. How do you see this playing out?
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, well, you rightly talked about how the president this week tried to make it about Abrego Garcia and whether he violated the law. The real question at this point is whether the president is violating the law, right? And – and there are rules to how this is done. And it's striking because of course one person who cares very much about due process, all last year, was Donald Trump because he went to the courts himself, right, obviously indicted and prosecuted, at one point convicted. And he availed himself of every possible argument in a court of law, as he is entitled to do in his defense. What we're talking about here is that even a man like Garcia Abrego should have the opportunity to avail himself of that. And a judge said he should not be deported. Senator Kennedy told you it was a screw-up. The question is, "If you screw up, what do you do about it?" The Supreme Court says you have to do something about it. "Facilitate is an active verb," says Judge Wilkinson.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, and, Mel, you have the Democrats watching this. Senator Van Hollen went to El Salvador at a time when Democrats are really in the process of searching for a leader. And as one Democrat said to me, he actually did something. This went beyond messaging. How is this playing out on Capitol Hill? What are Democrats saying to you?
MELANIE ZANONA:
I do think there is a divide in the Democratic Party right now about whether this was the right fight or is the right fight for them. Certainly, there are Democrats who feel like this is a core defining principle of democracy and the Democratic Party. There was a lot of activists and the base was very, you know, praising of what Van Hollen did, that he actually went there. But there's another camp of Democrats who really feel like this is playing into Trump's hands and that they're taking the bait. They would much rather be talking about the economy and the tariff fight. So they are worried that they're just on Trump's turf right now when it comes to immigration. This is an issue that Trump is still very strong on. So this is really encapsulating the broader fight that has been playing out in the Democratic Party since day one.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I think you're absolutely right. In fact, we have two Democrats who encapsulate that divide you talk about, Mel. This is Governor Gavin Newsom and Dan Pfeiffer, former top Obama administration official, on two very different sides of the spectrum. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
GOV. GAVIN NEWSON:
This is the distraction of the day, the art of distraction. "Don't get distracted by distractions," we say, and here we zig and zag. This is the debate they want. This is their 80/20 issue, as they've described it.
DAN PFEIFFER:
If our response to the father and husband of a U.S. citizen being sent illegally in defiance of a Supreme Court order to a foreign gulag is to vomit out some poll-tested talking points about tariffs, to turn our back to it, like, that is absurd. Like, who are we and what do we stand for if we do that?
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
María Teresa, we should mention he's married to a U.S. citizen. But how do you see this divide playing out?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
So I would say that the Democrats need to be able to do both things at the same time. We can talk about the economy, and we can talk about the breaking of the law on the Trump administration because they sent someone that basically wasn't supposed to be to an El Salvadorian gulag. But here's the thing: in isolation they seem separate, but when you start looking at what the administration's doing so effectively right now, when you start talking about tariffs, his meddling in tariffs, when he starts talking about thumbing his nose at the judiciary, when he starts talking about DOGE, what he is doing right now is a massive power grab for centralizing power in the administrative branch. And in doing so, if we do not have a checks and balances, as our founding fathers had envisioned, where do we go? Congress is supposed to check on tariffs. The judiciary is supposed to check on the rule of law. You could actually say that right now the markets are the only ones checking him because they're the ones that are saying, "Wait a second. What you did right now is screwing up the bonds markets, so we're going to tank you." And that's why he pushed back. So that's the whole purpose. We do have rule of law, and he's not doing it. But we need to talk about the economy? Sure, lead with that first but then remind people that this is an administrative power grab in ways that we've never seen before.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc, your response and the fact that, boy, the administration does see this as a very potent issue for them.
MARC SHORT:
Well, sure it is. I think that the president still enjoys favorable ratings on immigration policy. I think that this latest – this last week has been really good for Chris Van Hollen. I think it's been really good for Donald Trump. I think if we're focused on immigration, you're talking about somebody who's a wife-beater, who has gone – as Senator Kennedy said – in front of judges 17 different times. I think it's hard for a lot of Americans to feel sympathy on this. And I think for the president and his team, we have a lot of the central planners, as you said, María, inside his trade policy team destroying $12 trillion in market capitalization. They'd much rather be talking about immigration than what they're doing on the economy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc, let me follow up with you quickly on the economy. I was struck by the fact that Senator Kennedy outright said he did not think that President Trump has the authority to get rid of the Fed chair, Jerome Powell. What was your take on that and kind of where things stand?
MARC SHORT:
Well, look, I think the president – even though he nominated Jerome Powell – has always wanted to remove him, and he was angry at those who had recommended him. I think that he would want to test this. Courts have suggested that some of these independent branches, that the executive branch has that authority. I do think that, stepping back, the Federal Reserve has enormous power over our economy and doesn't have much accountability to the American voter. Having said that, for the same reasons – and he's destroyed this much market value already in the economy with his trade policy – I think the markets would push back significantly on any sort of suggestion of replacing Powell. That's why I don't think it's going to happen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Peter, you've written extensively about this. I mean, how do you see this playing out? And it comes against the backdrop of all of this volatility and uncertainty. Senator Elizabeth Warren saying she thinks the markets would crash if the president were to get rid of the Fed chair.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, I mean, it's possible. They've already obviously plunged quite a lot as it is. And it’s – but it's what Trump wants to do. He wants to change the subject. We talked about that with Abrego Garcia. It's like he's changing the subject to Jay Powell. The economy or the markets may be doing badly, but it's not his fault. It's Jay Powell's fault. Now, as Marc said, this is a legal question. And he talked about doing this in the first term. Jay Powell consulted the lawyers about this, and the lawyers told him, "Look, you've got a good case of you're independent, he can't rid of you. But here's the thing: You're going to have to defend it yourself out of your own pocket." And Jay Powell told people he would spend every last nickel he has to defend it. Now, that means therefore you're going to have a long fight. You're going to go back to the Supreme Court, one more case before the Supreme Court. So even if you want to fire Jay Powell, it may not be practical to do in the short term, and there could be economic consequences.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, Mel, how are people responding to those tensions between the president and Fed chair on the Hill?
MELANIE ZANONA:
I would say right now there is a fragile truce between the free market Republicans and Donald Trump when it comes to the issue of tariffs.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That’s a good way to put it.
MELANIE ZANONA:
Yeah, prior to the 90-day pause there had been momentum growing for a bill that would rein in Trump's tariff authority. There was talk about forcing a floor vote to revoke some of those tariffs. After the 90-day pause the momentum really stalled for that. But if Trump were to fire the Fed chair, I think that would be a red line for some Republicans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
María Teresa?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, not just for Republicans but for outside investors, for foreign allies, people that actually want -- he's going to disrupt the global markets in ways that we've never seen. And even now, with these ideas of the tariffs, there are so many people now, different countries now, that are brokering their own trade agreements that we're not involved in. And we just expect that we're going to be able to slip right in when we're ready.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, guys, pause. We'll come back for much more with you all. But when we come back, Harvard's clash with President Trump. Our Meet the Press Minute takes a look back at one of the leaders of the elite institution.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President Trump escalated his battle with Harvard this week, freezing billions of dollars in federal funds, threatening to block the university from enrolling international students and calling to revoke Harvard's tax exempt status. The move came after Harvard rejected a list of demands that would've required sweeping reforms at the university, which it called, quote, "unprecedented" and said violates Harvard's First Amendment rights. In 1986, Harvard president Derek Bok joined Meet The Press to defend the diversity of its curriculum.
[START TAPE]
DEREK BOK:
I don't think there should be certain courses required for every student in America. One of the glories of the United States is that we educate a much higher proportion of young people than any other country, and that means there's enormous diversity and they start with many different levels of preparation. So, I think we should capitalize on our diversity and have many different approaches to undergraduate education. I do think to say we should have many different approaches doesn't mean that individual colleges should just let things go into anarchy. And I think there was too much tendency in that direction and much of it has been corrected. And every university ought to tighten up and reform its own curriculum. But the answers that they arrive at will not be the same for all institutions, and that's a healthy thing.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, they are drawing massive crowds as they tour the country fighting President Trump. Is the left having their own Tea Party moment? More with the panel next.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: We believe in an economy that works for all, not just for Musk and his fellow billionaires.
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ: If you even voted for Donald Trump in the past and you’re open to changing your mind, come on in.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is still here. María Teresa, we are seeing Senator Sanders and Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez hold these rallies across the country, warning of what they say is an emerging oligarchy. Do you think this is where the party is? Is it galvanizing the party? Is it moving the party further to the left? What do you make of these?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
I want to look at what's happening right now in Folsom County in California. It is a county of 85,000 people and 30,000 people showed up to that rally. And I think that they are touching on the moment that we're living in, as Trump did. We're in a populist moment. And when you have almost a third of registered voters who sat it out, saying, "The system's not for me. It's too icky, and government is not functioning for me," they’re meeting folks there. And I do think that there's an opportunity for the Democrats to embrace these masses, speak about modernizing our government for the 21st century. I mean, Trump is taking a sledgehammer to it and they're saying, "You know what? Let's not be part of the status quo. Let's use this moment to reimagine our institutions for – to – for the 21st century because they were constructed 100 years ago." But then, start talking about moderate policies. What they want at the end of the day, I think the majority of the American people want, they want someone fighting for them in a way that they understand. And they recognize that, yes, the cost of eggs are too high. Yes, if you do mass deportations, who's actually going to pick our food? Who's going to basically, you know, take care of our hotels? I mean, you talk right now to the airline industry – nobody wants to come to the United States right now because they're afraid that they're going to get deported. I mean, you hear about the stories of – of tourists that came here wrongfully and got shackled and sent back to Germany. If you look, there was a piece in The Washington Post, that across Europe, people who were intending to come here for the summer, they're canceling their plans. That's not actually a policy. But the Democrats have to be strong and say, "Look, what we're seeing on the ground is a swell of, 'Pay attention. We want our democracy to work, but you have to come up policies that meet us where we are.'"
KRISTEN WELKER:
The ripple effects are staggering, as you lay them out. Mel, you've been to these rallies actually, and part of the messaging is Senator Sanders saying, "You know, you should think about running as an Independent." How do you think they're playing, and are they helping in any way? Because right now the Democratic Party is really struggling to find a coherent strategy and message that they can all get behind.
MELANIE ZANONA:
I don't think the “run as an Independent” message is one that Democratic leaders should want to be saying right now. And actually I texted a lawmaker at the time, a Democratic lawmaker when he made those comments, and the response was an eye roll emoji. Look, there are other aspects of these rallies that Democratic leadership is looking to as a playbook for reenergizing a party that was incredibly depressed, to María's point, after Trump won in November. And one thing that was really remarkable to me, not just the size of the crowd but how many people I talked to who told me they had never been to a political event or rally in their entire life. So one thing that these rallies are – seem to be succeeding at is getting people, disenfranchised voters, more involved in the political process, particularly working-class voters like I was – Las Vegas, for example, huge working-class voter population. And that is going to be key for Democrats to defeat MAGA.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Peter, you know, it's not just these rallies. There are people taking to the streets. We saw it this weekend. All across the country, really speaking out against, protesting, the Trump agenda. And it comes as the Democratic Party is still largely a leaderless party.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah. Yeah, look, they need some energy, right?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
PETER BAKER:
I mean, the Democratic Party as of November was demoralized, defeated, had no energy at all, deflated. They weren't in the streets. They didn't know what to do. They were fighting with each other about who was responsible. "It's the Liberals' fault." "It's the Moderate’s fault," whatever. And – and now they do seem to have some energy, thanks to Trump and Musk because he's given them something to rally around. But they don't have a leader. You're right. They do not have a leader. We do not see on the horizon yet the obvious person who's going to take them into the next stage of whatever it is and help define them in the way that Bill Clinton helped define the party when he came in in the '90s. The way Barack Obama helped define the party when he came over. I don't see that leader at this moment. Maybe it's too early.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Marc, one of the parallels that is being drawn in this moment is to the inception of the Tea Party movement, which we all remember started during the Obama administration. Do you see those parallels playing out? How do you see this?
MARC SHORT:
Sure, I think there's a lot of energy on the left. But I think it’s also – I think we live in really unserious times, Kristen. I think the reality is that you're highlighting the Bernie Sanders-AOC rallies at the same time that Donald Trump is pursuing Bernie Sanders’ trade policy. The Trump administration is advocating tax increases on job creators in America. The economic policy’s exactly what AOC and Bernie Sanders would want.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That’s right.
MARC SHORT:
And that's not where the Tea Party started. The Tea Party started with cutting spending and cutting the size of – of government. And although the Trump administration is doing that through DOGE, you look at so many other points, as María actually made, about centralization inside the executive branch that is actually a lot of economic policies that are exactly what Bernie Sanders was advocating for his whole career.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. I mean, you think about a leaderless party, María Teresa, and remarkably former President Biden stepped into the spotlight this week. Made some pretty powerful words about President Trump, his agenda. What do you make of President Biden, within the first 100 days, which is much earlier than we've seen past presidents, come out and speak out against his successor?
MARÍA TERESA KUMAR:
Well, I don't think we've seen any other president be so effective in their policies in 100 days. I mean, whether we like it or not, Trump has disrupted the movement. Every single day he is attacking an institution, whether it's the media, whether it's the checks on power, whether it's philanthropy, whether it's universities. I mean, he is full throttle. So I think that one of the things that Biden is saying is like, "This is – not only is that not normal,” but remind us of what it means to have a decency in the presidency when you can actually – you know, one of the things often times, you know, government just isn't working. Like, sometimes you want to feel like government's not working because you're not getting shocked by it but you know that when you turn on the lights, the lights work, right? And that's government working.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. I mean, Mel, a lot of Democrats are questioning whether former President Biden is the right messenger –
MELANIE ZANONA:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– at this moment or is he muddying the message because they want to turn the page from 2024?
MELANIE ZANONA:
Yeah, they want to turn the page from 2024. I think there are probably some Democrats who don't want to see Biden. There were reports that, you know, during the convention he had reached out and said, "I want to be helpful," and Democrats said, "Ah, I – I think we're good here." But, look, he is someone who still has a real connection with working class voters, given his roots and his background. And he is someone who, back in 2020, was the messenger for normalcy and a return to change, a return to the adult in the room. And, broadly, that is the message that Democrats seem to be coalescing around once again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, Marc, how do you think Republicans see this moment, when you do see Democrats kind of struggling to figure out what their message is? I mean, do you think it emboldens President Trump? Or could we see a moment where, for example, the Abrego Garcia case backfires against the president?
MARC SHORT:
Look, I – I think that for Republicans Joe Biden is the gift that keeps on giving. And there's nothing they'd like more than to see, you know, Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden as the future of the Democratic Party because there's not a lot of future there. So, I think for Republicans, sure, this is emboldening to see how sort of disorganized the Democratic Party is. But, you know, on the legal front, Kristen, I think in the last week we have seen something different, where there've been district court judges that Trump appointed ruling against him. You highlighted the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals. A Reagan appointee having a very strong decision against Trump administration. Now even the Supreme Court. So, I do think we're at a different point today.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, and, Peter, just finally with the 30 seconds or so we have left, it's not just President Biden speaking out. It's former President Obama, and it's former President Clinton in – in this extraordinary – he was speaking at the Oklahoma City Bombing memorial yesterday.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah, yeah. But I think what matters is, frankly, when do Republicans speak out, right? And we saw this last week. Lisa Murkowski, the senator from Alaska, who's not a fan of Trump, say very candidly that the reason she doesn't is that she's afraid of retaliation. And, you know, she's a United States senator, right? She ought to feel some confidence in that, but it is true that a lot of Republicans are uncomfortable in some of the things that are going on, but they're not willing to speak out for a lot of reasons.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, guys, thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it. That is all for today. Thanks for watching. Happy Easter for everyone who celebrates. We will be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet The Press.
